Faculty Focus Group
TOPIC: IMPACT OF DESKTOP ACCESS AND DELIVERY OF
INFORMATION ON YOUR WORK
Participants:
Penny Leggott - Pediatric
Dentistry.
George Martin- Pathology,
Adjunct in Genome Sciences.
Monica
Jarrett - Nursing.
Carl Bergstrom - Zoology
B Huang - Social Work.
Jeff Wilkes - Physics
Department. I do particle physics.
Trisha Davis - Biochemistry.
Will Welton - Health Services/Public Health
Frank Greulich –
Jack
Nicholls, -
Laura
Little - Psychology.
My
name is Karen Liston and I work over in Suzzallo. I’m the head of Resource Access and we also
have Angela Lee, the head of Social Work [Library], who will probably be able
to give you some idea of actual answers to questions that might come up. We can
also record them and will be able to get back to you. We’ve got email addresses
and names. A good thing about not working in this unit is that I’m not going to
feel bad if you say anything critical about any library in the system. We
really want to be able to do this to be able to gather data from you, to be
able to change services, or sometimes look for more <? 021> need more
data from, and that’s kind of what I’ve been involved in, is the process of
improving data collection etc. Topics like that.
We
are going to be recording this session, so try to speak up, although we just
tested and it picks up pretty well. There are going to be transcribed by a
staff member in the library who is not going to be attributing anybody’s identity
to specific comments. So you don’t need to worry about that. They’re just going
to be picking up phrases and things and arranging them into data that we can
use.
Angela’s
also going to be keeping very broad notes, mostly in case anything in our
recording fails or doesn’t actually successfully pick up our voices. But also
we’ve found that a written framework is very nice when the transcribers are
working, because she knows how a lot of those words are spelled.
We’re
going to be progressing through about three basic areas. I’m going to try to
steer you without leading you, so I may not be suggesting a whole lot of things
but I’m going to try to leave that up to you, unless you’re really stuck. I
might try to do something else. There may be silences and when those happens, that’s OK. It’s just a time to kind of gather
your thoughts and… Oh yeah, no it can happen. Not that it has to but <? 034>.
We
are looking for what you need to tell us. So it’s fine if… If we’re
going too far afield on something I may write it down to capture it for another
group, for another set of librarians etc., and we’ll get back onto the topic
that we’re working on. But those things are of interest to us too because we do
try to trade information around the library.
Let
me see. I’m also going to insure that everybody has a chance to talk. So you
may be called upon to give comments. If you don’t have anything to say, it’s
fine. You just say “Pass.” I just want to give everyone that opportunity. And
if something hits you that you want to say, feel free to signal me, raise your
hand, whatever you need to do to get the attention and we’ll get to you next. I
do want to remind you all to speak as loudly as you comfortably can and also
try to talk one at a time just for the sake of, number one, hearing each other,
and the recording to be able to pick it up and for clarity of <? 043>.
So
do you have any questions for us at this point?
So
can you tell us about your objectives, the librarians.
What would you like to come out of this meeting?
At
this point what we really want to know is what the impact of desktop access
<? 045> information, electronic online information, has been. How you use
it currently, and perhaps, what you anticipate would be your <? 047> immediate future. Basically so we can use it in our
strategic plan and be able to incorporate it into the services that the library
offers.
So
do you want kind of a semi-quantitative answer to that? Or just a plain “Yes
it’s good” or “No it’s bad” or… so that it translates into a budget decision?
Is that part of it?
No,
I would actually say that it’s probably not. <? 052> time for me to say
exactly how the budgeting operation works, but I think the idea is to identify
the priorities and then be able to, hopefully, budget to make the top ones happen.
So we kind of want to know what’s the most important to you, what’s the most
useful to you, what most impacts your work? The way that I’ve kind of framed
things is kind of to get an idea of how you currently use information… How do
you go about finding the information you need, at this point? <? 057>
I
get on the web.
You
get on the web. Can you tell me more about how you go about doing that? What do
you do first?
Do
a search. <? 059> search engine. I want to find a book by an author <?
060> information.
Do
you start with search engines?
Yeah.
Do
you have a particular favorite?
Not
really.
How
about anybody else?
Yes,
same here. Start with a search engine, and I typically use Google.
Any reason for that preference?
I
find that it’s very well designed and very effective. For the searches I’ve
done it’s been very fast.
Same here.
I have it as my home page.
I
have just a comment about why <? 066> search engines.
The proxy server that gives you opportunity to access databases and the
electronic journal collection at the
And
I find sometimes, for reasons that I don’t understand, it’s hard to download a
PDF on Netscape and if I go to Internet Explorer I can download that PDF – one
of its idiosyncrasies.
So
I wonder, why should it be…
It’s
just a technical problem <? 075 I wouldn’t want to> waste a lot of time
on it, <? 075> communicate to the people that it may be very nice to be
able to go either way, Internet Explorer or…
My
experience is that’s been difficult. I do a lot of web pages for my classes and
I find that Microsoft seems to work very hard to make Netscape crash. And
whenever Netscape comes out with a new edition they introduce new features, and
so my students finally asked me to just put up PDF files because that’s the
only thing that both Internet Explorer users and Netscape users can see equally
well. If you try to generate web pages with web authoring tools, they tend to
be for one browser or another – optimized – that’s my experience.
I’ve
actually had a different experience with the proxy servers. I’ve got it running
on Internet Explorer at home and, although I would have to say that we had some
difficulty originally in putting them up on that, but for some reason it got
solved. I’m not quite sure whether somebody reprogrammed it or whether I just…
You’re
on PC or a Mac?
PC. But I
have recently changed to the latest version of Windows on that, so that may
have made a difference.
Is
it XP you have now? Maybe that’s it.
Yeah.
The
comments are relevant. There has been some confusion about how to get on it.
And it’s not always a done deal.
So
with the proxy server I’m hearing you’ve had to adjust for different browsers,
for updated versions of software, etc. Has anybody found it difficult to
impossible?
One
complaint: I usually copy and paste but sometimes I have to write these – how
many numbers are…8, 9, 11, <laughter> 14 numbers I guess. Seems to me we
ought to be log on in a more sensible way than that.
I
just keep that in a file. I cut and paste it into the…
I
do that too. It’s a nuisance to have to do that.
I’d
like to mention – my strong preference is for vanilla web pages. No bells and
whistles that… I’ve been running Netscape 4.6 for a long time – really old. It
works fine on most of the library pages and I’m very pleased with it.
Oh
good. So that’s worked out.
Yeah.
Very much so. Compared to
many…
It’s
actually a really important concern, I think, for a lot of people, because
there are a lot of people doing technical work on platforms other than Windows
or Mac. And that’s very, very useful.
Are
there any pages at all that are problematic that way?
In the UW library system, no.
It’s
the UW home page that’s problematic. <laughter>
The library I like.
When
I log in I just go to HealthLinks. That’s my <? 100>
home page. And it <? 100> librarians
there at Health Sciences, and it prints out on it when I teach courses. And I
do it because that’s often why I’m going in – to search the database. So I go
to PubMed because those are the issues I’m most often <? 103>.
It’s really handy to just be there. You can either go to the catalog, or go to
PubMed, or if I need to go to an upper-campus library – some of those databases
– then it gets a little trickier, because I’m not as familiar with them. Not
that they <? 105> business school <? 106> databases.
Does
everybody here know what HealthLinks is? It’s the library front page that’s set
up by the Health Science Library.
That’s
my home page, actually. And I basically just <? 108> out of HealthLinks,
making connections where I need to connect <? 109>
university. It’s really very, very convenient.
Well,
I would say that the single most transforming situation in my academic life in
the last ten years has been access to electronic <? 112
terminals?>. <Murmurs of assent from others> It’s the future,
absolutely the future. So I personally would vote for a larger and larger
proportion of the budget to go in that direction. Because now
everyone’s got color printers. You can get hardcopy. And it’s great for
teaching because you can use the material for slides and teaching someone. So
it’s absolutely invaluable. The thing that’s so frustrating is when – since we
can’t cover everything – and
you go on line – let’s say from PubMed they might direct you to
the home page of the publisher. You look at an article and they ask for your
credit card! <? 120> a journal you’ve been reviewing articles for for
nothing, right? And you write an article for them. And you give away your
copyright – they own the copyright. And then <?
121> you want to get an article and they ask you for your credit card to get
it. It really infuriates us!
<?
123> make a deal with them…
Well,
there is this initiative of Public Library of Sciences. And a number of
scientists signed, electronically signed on the notion that they’re going to
boycott journals if they didn’t submit in a reasonable period of time, the full
text, a reasonable period of time being six months, and now it looks like a
year.
I’m
sorry, I don’t… Submit to?
The
idea is that they want the for-profit journals to commit to contributing their
full-text within some appropriate period of time.
So
they’re archives. You can get…
They’ve
been stonewalling on that.
<?
130> stonewalled just as badly…
You’re
right.
But the solution… In the physics community we send all preprints to the Physics
Archives. And we simply tell the journals that’s what we’re going to do. They
send us the copyright form saying you have to sign away your copyright, and we
send it back and say “Sorry, it’s gone to the archives.” That’s the way it’s
done in our community.
Well,
you know how to do it!
Well,
if everybody just does it, then they can’t argue.
Yeah.
And I think we’re lax in that regard. The biologists <have? haven’t?> gotten together to use our muscle, really.
<? 135> enormously profitable <? 136>
It’s
academic peer pressure. Basically, if your paper isn’t in the Physic… in the
Archive at
One
problem I have with the e-journals, because I teach research to masters students,
is that I realize that I gravitate to e-journals. If the journal is in the
library, then I don’t tend to use it. A lot of the nursing journals they’ve
done by masters-level nurses and so sometimes those are good articles to use
with <? 143> are not available because they’re not picked up by the
conglomerates that group together different journals. So I worry about how
information is regulated because the journals that are e-journals will get
used. And the journals that aren’t will get less and less attention and less
used. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I don’t know. But what concerns me
is that people buy from those consortia <? 147> as you
guys <? 147> that you think about these other journals that are
important to clinicians.
Do
you find that you’re using journals that are print-only less?
If
it comes out in Current Contents and I want that article for an argument I’m
forming, or <? 150> then I’ll go get it. And I’ll buy it, I’ll send out
for it. And pay the $5 if I need to. But there’s sort of a trend there. So I
tend to go to the ones that are easy to get first.
What
about your students? Do you think it’s an issue for them?
<?
154> follow the same <? 154>. You go for what
you can get easily.
And
by that same token, if you stop and think about – the ones which you don’t go
for, the ones that are not electronically provided,
are the ones that are going to lose subscribers. And that would be <? 157>. And that’s what’s happening to our journals. They
are losing subscribers because of this electronic age that you are so
infatuated with. So as a result they are having to
charge <? 159> they are having to charge
probably to stay afloat.
As
they lose subscribers they lose submitters. Nobody’s going to send a paper to a
journal that nobody’s reading.
Well,
this publish-or-perish syndrome that we have in this institution and many
others like it suggests strongly that we get out there and put our papers out
in print. So they’re going to get in print where they can.
Sure,
but I’ve never sat on a promotion-review committee that didn’t look at where
they printed.
Oh
listen. <? 164> referee.
Not
everybody gets in Nature.
We
can <need to? 165> bring academic peer pressure here too and value a
journal…value a publication in a non-for-profit journal differently that one in
a small for-profit journal, something that we could very easily do and shift a
lot of things <? 168>
Don’t
you think that’s happening? I mean, that it’s happening by default?
In
fields where there are a lot of non-profit journals, yes. In fields like
neurobiology there are very few non-profit journals at all because the field
started too late. The for-profits were established and took off.
<?
171> they might turn into very big journals <? 173>
consortiums that we know <? 173> Microsoft <?
174> electronic journal world <? 174> have to
deal with that. So I don’t know what the solution needs to be.
Can
I ask you where you get a lot of your information about the academic publishing
world? Is it direct experience? Is it talking with colleagues? Is it going to
conferences? <? 177>
Like what journals we use? I think we all probably know what the A journals are
and the B journals are in our profession.
I’m
guessing that <? 179> the whole scholarly publishing
process <? 179>
Are
you exposed to that?
I’ve
been doing some research in collaboration with <? 181> actually, on the
economics of scholarly publishing, so that’s how I happen to be…
My
wife was Managing Editor for a couple of health science journals, so I get it
at home over the dinner table. <laughter>
Yeah, the Journal of Human Genetics and the General
Internal Medicine <? 184>
And
they’re struggling?
Yeah,
they’re struggling with issues – the copyright issues… When people… now that
there’s money to be made in genetics, for example, some of the authors get into
fights over who has the rights to things. I hear all of this stuff. Also, I’ve
been approached by a few publishers to be a receiving editor for this and that
so I’ve talked to them about what the business is like.
Well,
we want to figure out how to be like the physical sciences. <laughter>
We
really aspire to that…
They
are one of the models…
I
think that the guy who does it down at
<?
196> know of some place…
Yeah,
he left and it now became an organization. It started out as XXX at
When
word got into the publishing community <? 203> who was the head of NIH
and Pat Brown at Stanford – they really wanted to have a central repository,
<? 204> was an immediate reaction and they geared it up to be competitive
for it and overwhelmed <? 206> And even <?
207> six months, if they all said “Yes, we’ll put it on after six months or
a year” it’s not going to do us any good when we write grants or write papers
or give <? 208>. It’s too late! So that’s not
going to be satisfactory. Sure, it will be good for the history of science…It
helps. To some extent it definitely helps, but it’s not a solution. It’s very
frustrating right now and it’s…There are so many competing groups to try to
control the flow of information… Particularly the little guys in small university, and in
This
is a pretty hot topic right now in libraries and I think that there is some
information out there. We’ll at least try to give you some of the things that
libraries track. I know there’s some data, certainly <? 216> few of the
models… we’ll be able to come and share that with you all. <? 217> some information concern about that.
We’d
be interested in knowing what concerns, if any, the physics folks have about
permanent archiving.
Well,
that’s an interesting question. As it gets more and more massive, I don’t
really know what their plans are. I can’t imagine how many gigabytes of data
they’ve got. But, of course, it’s backed up, and as long as the organization
exists, it will last. The way it works, really, is you submit a preprint and
then when it gets published, they sort of
automatically pick it up and then reference the journal citation. You can still
get a copy of the last preprint, so in some sense it’s the sole repository only
for papers that never get published. Eventually they go to a journal, whether a
society or a commercial journal. But you can still get from the archives the
reprint of the paper.
This
archiving function seems like an absolutely critical area for libraries to move
into.
Right.
Yeah. I agree.
Relative
to the problem of archiving all these paper journals, it’s a relatively easy
and inexpensive problem.
Well,
for example, the archive at
It’s
a relatively small investment on the part of university libraries would be able
to address that problem in a very satisfactorily… Relatively small,
relative to the expense of storing all their paper copies of things, which
essentially serves as our safeguard for <?237>
…but
I look at papyrus. It’s been around for 5000+ years and you can still – if
you’re an expert in the language – you can still read it. I’m wondering, 5000
years from now,…
Oh
it’s not that long. I’ve got a bunch of magnetic tapes from 10 years ago that I
can’t read <? 240>. I keep a few punch cards
just to show my students – this is the equivalent of papyrus.
What
we’ve got now… You basically copy from hard disk to hard disk as the technology
goes. And I’ve stopped backing things up on floppy disk and other media because
they’re just not… they’re too changeable. I just get a bigger disk. I’ve now
got like four layers on my computer of previous computers, starting with the 20Mb disk I had 10 years ago, and I just keep everything
because it’s easiest. It’s always readable. So to some extent, as long as we
keep those hard disks spinning we’ve always got the data.
But
they’re really not always readable, right? Because if it was written
with a word processing program like WriteNow, which has been dead for years,
and couldn’t possibly run on a new computer, you never could read it.
That’s
correct.
Well,
you could read it, but it would take…
You’d
be better off with print.
You
can read it but you can’t edit it.
So
are concerned that we should always have paper copies?
How
long does paper last?
…or
do we…
5000
years. <laughter>
All
of the things that you’re raising are factors that we’ve <? 252>
When
was the last time any of you went down to the library to go into the stacks to
get a book?
Oh,
I do it a lot.
Don’t
hold your hand up, tell me when.
Last
week.
Yesterday.
Probably
within the last two months.
But
I’ll say something: it’s only for recreational purposes. <laughter>
I go to the Suzzallo or I go to the Odegaard Library to get stuff to read. And
that’s when I browse. That’s when I walk through the stacks and enjoy the smell
of books, which I really love. But I hardly ever physically set foot in the
Physics Library because I can get almost everything I want online.
I
probably haven’t been there for nine months.
The
one place that it’s hard to do in evolutionary biology is we use a lot of very
old literature. Some of these are available through things like JSTOR which are
extremely useful. A lot of them that should be, aren’t. That is, the
societies own the copyrights, they should want this <? 263> for whatever
reason, no one’s bothered to do <? 264>. And so
supporting this is extremely useful for us. I’d much rather have access to
mainstream journals going further back than to some of the fringe stuff up to
the minute.
Would
that be true in all of your disciplines?
I
think it’s really helpful that they’re going and scanning more as they’re
working <? 268> At least 10 years, 15… A lot of times there isn’t that
much in the last 10 years. You can’t <? 269>
I
find 100 is useful in evolutionary theory. <laughter>
Seems
to me in this discussion that it’s important to be clear about who has the
responsibility for archiving, because I don’t believe the university has even
the responsibility or the right to archive, because the ownership rights
are elsewhere. So I think the real issue here is supporting the role of the appropriate
people within the university library system to participate in development of
consortia and supporting consortia whose mission it is to archive this material
and make it accessible to their members. In my mind, that’s what this archiving
issue is all about. I don’t see that as a university issue so much as it is
making sure that the university is a part of those efforts and supporting them.
There’s no way that anybody here is going to be able to do the kind of
archiving that we’re talking about. There’s not a < proper? profit? 218> party in the world to
support that. It’s going to have to be a joint effort.
University
libraries have stepped up as publishers more and more often. I guess I don’t
see it as so different.
Well,
the ownership issue is a big issue.
That
is, the University Library shouldn’t be responsible for archiving Elsevier’s
electronic things. However, the University Library could get involved archiving
a preprint system.
Or what about journals that no longer exist? Is there a copyright issue in scanning those, for
example, because the copyright presumably goes to someone?
Yeah,
it does.
All
of the things that you’ve brought up are all parts of the topic. And there
really isn’t a single model that has emerged. There seems to be a lot of
experimentation at this point, in various ways to approach it.
Do
major libraries at universities around the
Some
do.
It
varies.
Again,
there’s no single system. There’s a few that have been successful doing that.
Do they cover absolutely everything? Nothing seems to cover absolutely
everything.
Well,
but they do have consortia of libraries. The Association of Research Libraries
would be one, for example, and others that interact on these kinds of issues.
They don’t necessarily do them, but they recognize them, I believe, and
are beginning to have discussions about how to approach them.
<?
303> getting journals from different parts of the world. Traditionally we
have <? 304> and Japanese journals <? 206>
But there are European journals I wish I could get access to and I can’t. I
have to order those special. So I’m curious to see as the world gets smaller,
how those consortiums form to maybe give us access to more of those
English-speaking… issued-in-English journals that <? 311> I can’t say
I’ve ever really had much use for journals published in other languages, the
language of <? 313>
Do
any of you frequently use journals in translation or particular journals <? 315> in translation?
Occasionally. Spanish-language journals.
Used
to use Russian-language journals, but they all publish in English-language
journals <? 317>.
Some
French ones.
The
French will never publish in English. <laughter>
It’s
interesting that Google can do translations. It gives you the drift anyway, if
not good translations.
Can
anybody share what their experience is like when they’re using online indexes,
library online indexes? How does your searching behavior, accessing pattern
work?
One
thing that hasn’t been brought up yet but that I typically do, rather than
start at a search engine or whatever, is usually ask colleagues, pick up a few
key articles and then build a citation tree forwards
and backwards. Using ISI Web of Science is incredibly useful there. I think I would pretty much
not know how to do research without it if it were to disappear. Kind of too bad, given their pricing behavior lately.
Have they gone up quite a bit?
Yeah, they changed philosophy…what they were up to,
essentially.
Well, of course I remember there were
a license for a limited number of people who could be on it at the same
time. Like 15 for the entire
Essentially what they’ve been doing is that there
have been some efforts to come up with similar indexes in the public domain
funded by government money and they lobbied very, very hard, a huge lobby, and
they’ve managed to get those efforts blocked. Removed line-item out of
Congress. Very poor behavior for something so important.
So for me, and many of my colleagues, that actually turns out to be incredibly
useful – being able to do those bi-directional citation trees.
Are there other indexes that you kind of rely on?
Or a suite of indexes that you find yourself using the same ones again and
again?
I mostly use keywords. Or
subjects. But that’s just for what I do. It’s less important that I have
citation trees.
I typically go in with keywords, but when I get to
the frustration point then I call Terry Jankowski and say “What the hell should
I be looking for?” <laughter> And she’s been
very, very useful.
I have trouble with the INSPEC search.
<? 350> I usually end up calling Terry, or
actually, calling the libra… especially if I’m doing <? 352>
somebody else at the library <? 352> a lot of help <?352>
You’re having difficulty getting to the…
Getting what I want <? 354> or it’s not
coming up with emphasis that I want or…
There was a version of PubMed that wasn’t PubMed,
it was before PubMed that was much… I thought it was actually easier to use. And easier to end up with the article because you really could find
out the MeSH terms very fast.
Grateful Med. Right. And you knew the MeSH terms,
so you’d have one article – you could find the MeSH terms, and then you’d just
use that MeSH term in your search. And it’s not at all… I have never figured
out how to make PubMed work that well.
It’s not very intuitive at all.
No.
And I <? 364>
all kinds of directions for myself. <laughter>
And once I’m going down one avenue I can get <? 365> facile and change
direction… feel pretty incompetent.
Anybody using these new-fangled things like the Faculty of a Thousand that choose key papers that…
that’s a promotional operation.
Do we have access to the Faculty of a Thousand
here? I don’t think we do. We have to have personal subscriptions.
They give you trial subscriptions. I’ve tried it
once, but…
Oh, what did you think?
I was busy doing other things and my month was up.
<laughter>
Do those kinds of things appeal to you, though? You
were motivated enough to try it.
Yeah, it’s a nice experiment.
What does it do?
These are just beginning to proliferate. <? 375> a way to make you some money.
It’s a way of keeping up with the extraordinary
literature. You probably have seen as much of it as I have, but basically a
thousand people recommend articles that they’ve found particularly noteworthy.
There are a few similar non-profit things. There’s something called <Not a?
379> Journal of Economics that is an online-only thing where they basically…
where the top start of economics pick a couple of unpublished papers that are
available in preprint. I supposed there must be these things… people drawing
attention to things in the
So this replaces the old habit of strolling into the
library and browsing the journals on the new journal…
Which is getting
increasingly harder as the volume of information …
Yeah. Right.
I’m Editor-in-Chief of another <? 389>
experiment in electronic journalism. It’s the second in the series that Science magazine has introduced.
It’s called Signal Transduction Knowledge Environment or STKE <? 393> SAGE KE Science and
Aging Knowledge Environment. It’s early in the game to know how
useful it will be. The idea is that it’s an intellectual home for colleagues in
your field. <? 396> developing algorithms with the HighWire Press at
Stanford to try to fish out, every day, articles in its broad area. Arts is tough because it’s so encyclopedic but it’s a little
better with the signal transduction world. So you could log in… Some of the
people love it. They log in every day and they keep up with their field that
way as opposed to just looking for phrases on PubMed. And then also there’s
exchange of information about new resources and new reagents. And there are
classical articles that we post in the field. There’s a teaching domain so we
have slides, PowerPoint presentations…
So how do you do this? Do you have a staff doing
the posting?
Oh yeah. Well, we got a grant from the Ellison
Medical Foundation, a non-profit entity, to get it jump-started.
So you supply content and other people take care of
it.
That’s right. We’ve got some funding from other
organizations to pay small amounts of money to some both contributing editors
and scientific advisory board so they have a post-doc fellow who will be the
eyes and ears and then report on new developments in their areas and get them
involved in the enterprise. That may be something for the future <? 417>,
you have something like that, but it’s a little too early to tell whether or
not it will be viable.
Do very many of you have situations where you’re
accessing information on your own that <? 420> library has obtained for
you to access as a group?
No.
No.
You don’t have anything…
No.
For example, when you do go
to a publishing site that offers you an article in exchange for your charge
card number. <? 425> library has an account now… Is that something that
you’re finding that you do, at all, or are you finding more times when you
could be doing it and you <? 427>.
I would never pay them if I can pay you $5 to go
get it.
Yes.
That’s a general rule. But there have been times
when I absolutely had to have…and I had to pay for it.
<? 432>
$35.
So it does come up occasionally.
It comes up but I don’t pay.
<? 434> be out of business if we had to pay
$35 for the article.
What kinds of barriers or obstacles, in your use of
online information, are you running into. <?
437> things the library can do about, but basically we want to get at what
those barriers and obstacles are.
Really intuitive searching. I mean, I’d like to use
INSPEC more. I avoid it because I have problems with the search interface. And
I know that there’s articles there that should be
coming up, but I’m not finding them. And I’m finding hundreds of garbage and I
just… it’s not a question of, you know, Pam keeps saying “Well, sit down with
me and I’ll show you how to do it.” but I can’t
remember how to do complicated things from one day to the next. It may be a
product that doesn’t exist, but something that lets you just compose some
simple, logical choice. You know, if I want to do
cross… I want to say, well, I know this article was published by an author
whose last name is this and it’s in this category of journals, and it’s got
this keyword in it and I don’t know which year it’s in – all of those things
combined.
Yeah. That’s right. That’s really hard.
Even sometimes you put two authors’ names and a
year <? 454>.
Do you have any examples of particularly good ones
that work well for you, that you’re feeling in control and can reliably find
things?
Well, Google isn’t medical, but it sure comes up
with lots of <Yeah.> convenient references. I’ve got material <?
458> going through Google that I never did actually through PubMed, much to
my <? 460>. So I tend to go to
Google first - find articles and convenient MeSH terms and then I’ll come back
in – or keywords – actually.
Yeah. If you order the keywords properly you get…
Google’s just so much easier, so much more
intuitive for that.
And it seems like you can type almost anything in
Google and come out with the right thing. It’s quite amazing.
Exactly. Yes.
Do you get frustrated by a lot of hits with Google
or do get about the right amount?
Well you get a lot of hits but it’s always the top
4 or 5 you’re usually interested in. In PubMed they’re not ordered so nicely.
But you can scan through and see pretty quickly
what it’s picked up. So you can then do your advanced search based on what you
did, and it’s immediate. You get the picture very quickly, I think. It’s just
easier.
Of course, they have an expensive staff working
continuously on that. But on the other hand they sell their search engine.
It’s not just… In Google don’t they also – they
have another criteria was how often something was hit, and they go to the top
if the list, right? So that probably helps.
<? 479> problematic
thought.
Well that would be problematic for journals, yeah.
I don’t see how you could do it in PubMed, but I think that’s why it works in
Google.
<? 482> you mean you search for scientific
journals <? 483>
A topic.
Oh, a topic. And then you can get to journals from
that. I got to the British Dental Journal – an article, really quite quickly.
It didn’t occur to me to go that route. <? 488>
available online.
<? 489>
You’ll get whole pages of investigative <?
490>
Yes. Right.
That is very helpful.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Now that they’ve indexed
all the <? 491>
You even get seminar announcements from some
universities that put them online. “Oh, they’re talking about that there.”
And librarians. <? 495>
to the librarian <? 495>
<? 496> electronic things that is an issue
for me sometimes is it’s nice to have a PDF form so I can print it out and it’s
nice and <? 498> much better – I like that much better than printing out
the text version. But it’s really nice to have a text version as well, because
if I want to snip it for a lecture, or put it in something, I don’t have to
retype the whole thing. So it’s something to keep in mind, that I find both
formats valuable. And if there’s only PDF then I have to retype it all, I’ll go
to something else.
But you can extract text from <? 506>
You can do <? 506> off
Tools.
You can have tools for graphs, for text columns on
Adobe. So you can…
Aha. Well then teach me how to do it. Because now
there’s just Read.
Select Text.
It’s difficult to find things within a PDF document
that’s really long <? 512>
Search something it seems <? 513 everyone is
talking at once>
…nice because you can click and go to another
reference and so on.
…is very helpful there
…the tools
So I agree. To have both of them is quite useful.
…coming out of
<? 518> want to bring up. That’s the fact…
I’m not keeping up with a lot of this stuff. I’m getting old. <? 521>
getting close to the time I’m getting out of this place. But I don’t know what
the new search engines are, I don’t know what’s going on at the library in
terms of how <? 523> help me find the material I’m looking for in a
faster, easier <? 524> format happens to be. I need someone to tell me
that. I don’t want to get a ten-page document in the mail sometime, which I
don’t have time to read, and I can go through it and say, Oh yeah – now I know
<? 527> how to do that and I put it aside. Next
week I’ve got to do it – I’ve forgotten how to do it, dammit! <laughter>
<? 530> That’s
right. And then I’ve lost the paper. So, the thing is <?531>
But you don’t have time to read it.
That’s the point. So I need someone to tell me
those things, and to give me a quick intro. That’s why Terry is so blessed
useful. She’ll give me that information very quickly. One, very recently, she
gave me was the <IDR? 536> Abstracts <? 536> she said “Why don’t
you try this?” <? 537> used it <?537> I’m
probably their hottest hitter. <laughter> But
just getting those little tidbits at the right time, can make a very, very
large difference in how fast we access useful information.
That’s one thing to chorus loud and clear on the
tape. “Thank God for librarians!”
Yeah.
There’s no better place for human intervention in
information science.
<? 545> our faculty the librarians come
periodically and give us an update.
They do that with us.
And in fact, actually <? 547> said she would
come and give a seminar to our grad students. That was actually how I got my
most recent update.
Do they hook it on to another meeting?
Yeah, a faculty meeting sometimes.
Or one-on-one.
Yeah.
Or it would be a whole… as was suggested, a whole
bunch of grad students plus faculty who wanted to attend. She walks into the
room and away you go to functions.
<? 556> because I was in
the middle of a particular search and having difficulty, so she actually showed
us how to search on that broad topic and narrow it <? 559>
Are those presented in a way that you can use those…
<Tape ran out and was switched at this point, so
some comments were missed.>
…other kind of ideas do you have about how that
instruction can come to you, how you could most conveniently be able to apply
anything like that? Or are there any other kinds of aids that you’d like?
Well you guys – they email us now, if you’re on the
list. That’s <? 563> what’s going on in the library…
<? 563> particular email format is not easy
to read.
We used to get Books and Bytes. It would come as a
paper form, right? And I would read it as I walked from my mailbox to my office
and then I’d be done. But getting it as an email, or getting it as a link… I
never see it. I don’t have time.
So maybe going back to that print would be helpful
to you.
For me, that would be helpful, because I have a
very specific time I can get the reading done.
I think that’s an element of personal style. As the leaning towers of paper in my office… The only
information I can find is what’s on the email.
I’m afraid I must agree.
I think it varies. If I happen to have time, and
there’s a useful piece in Bits and Bytes, I cut it out, or highlight the heading
and then throw it into my library resource file so then I’ll remember, usually,
there was something on xyz in it. There’s something about reading on paper
that’s easier than online <? 574> I’m actually sitting and reading
something I’d rather it on paper.
I agree. I print out the email to read it. <laughter> But I can’t find anything unless it’s searchable.
<? 576> e-journals, I don’t just read them
online, I get them, and then I print them.
Yeah. I do to.
So really having high-quality color printers becomes
extremely important.
Let me ask a question. I have an inkjet printer,
which is always crummy. I don’t know why, but it’s always crummy. Do your
departments have color laser printers?
We finally convinced my department to buy a color
laserwriter, but it’s used so much that I had extra money, so I just bought my
own.
How much are they now?
I think it was $3000.
<? 582> cartridges <?
582>
But there’s a brand you can buy that the cartridges
are not expensive.
Not so bad.
Because it’s different. Like
little crayons. And they’re a lot cheaper. But it’s not as high quality.
But it’s good for almost everything you look at. It’s not good for
publication-quality figures. So that’s the big problem. In fact, there’s very
little access to color printers that are good enough to make a
publication-quality print. The only place I know of in all of Health Sciences
is the Locke.
Which is maybe the only
place we really need it, depending on the volume.
It’s cheaper, presumably.
Yeah, it doesn’t actually cost that much considering
how much it costs to run those things.
It’s interesting, because I do a lot of
collaborative work with people in
Perhaps institutions in
I think it’s the way they fund things. Academic
institutions are not at the bottom of the feeding…
But I think it is going to be important in lib…
well, maybe not in libraries, but it’s going to be important that people have
access to these color printers. I think it’s going to be more and more
important. In my field, five years ago, nothing was printed in color because
nobody could afford to pay the page charges. But something’s happened, and now
almost every article is color.
For a lot of scientific graphics, color is very
important.
It’s very important.
<? 600 hard to hear>
I feel as though what I might add might be a little
bit different than many of your concerns… But I have a fairly heavy undergrad
load – there’s such a huge undergraduate population in our department and from
a teaching standpoint, I know that students want <?604> online journals. They do
not want to go to the libraries any more. From my department…
The biggest problem we have is that we do not have <APA? 606>
Journal online. And it seems to me, from listening to you, as though your… maybe there’s less of an issue as to getting the
online publications that you need. But our biggest chunk of
them are not available to us. And that is particularly difficult for
teaching, simply because I can get copies if I <? 611> but putting out
little <flyers? fires? 611> on
a daily basis for undergraduates, and graduate students too, <?
612> very quickly – that’s a real problem for us. A huge number of our A
journals are not available
Do they not offer institutional site licenses? Is
that why this university doesn’t have them?
Extremely expensive, I think.
Just extremely expensive. OK.
<? 615> chemistry.
Does that impact the students’ learning?
I think it does.
Tell me a little more about that <? 616>
Well, historically we’ve been able to sort of get
around it by Electronic Reserves. But <now? when?
617> we want students to read the same things… If we’re not able to get
online copies and we have a large number of part-time lecturers to teach to our
undergraduate classes who don’t know about Electronic Reserves. So the biggest
impact comes in that our undergraduate students then tend to read less <? 621> literature – to read what’s excerpted in the textbooks.
When we let loose 200 students to the library to do
a review paper on a certain topic, everything’s missing. And we’ve had the
librarians sort of give us a talking to: “You can’t do that to us.” <laughter> We have these huge classes…
Maybe illustrates something again about faculty
that don’t know what they could do about it.
And that’s maybe our problem, and not the library’s
problem.
Well, we have to work together.
Yes.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t use them either
because… I’m planning my lectures usually a week before…
A week? <laughter>
On a good year! <laughter>
…nip at my heals. And so
I’m looking for examples and stuff. And so I need to plug things in. And so,
yeah – I’ll go to an e-journal <? 633> everything else requires me to go
downstairs, give it to <? 633> means that I’ve got to be really <? 634> six months ago. It doesn’t work that way. If there’s
a hot topic then I go find an article that’s related to whatever it is that
<? 635>
…Reserves system seems to work – students
<can’t? can? 636> find it. The amount of time to
get things reserved…
It’s kind of on the amount of lead-time it takes to
prepare it and produce it.
<? 638> and that may not be
Reserves system seems to work – students <can’t?
can? 076> find it. The amount of time to get things
reserved…
It’s kind of on the amount of lead-time it takes to
prepare it and produce it.
Then you’re committed to that and that may not be
really what you should be <? 078> topic you should be focusing on.
So maybe a little more ease <? 081>
We can put textbooks on reserve easily, because we
know what textbooks we’re using ahead of time. But they disappear. And
actually, it’s a big difference between putting it in Health Sciences and
putting it up in the undergraduate library. Because in the Health Sciences, I
don’t think they watch. But in the undergraduate library they don’t disappear.
So even though we’re in Health Sciences, we don’t use the Health Sciences
Library for reserve because things don’t stay long enough to make it worth it.
Wow.
Gee.
Have any <others> of you had any experience
with anything like that?
I’ve heard <? 086> would kill you if you
walked out. <laughter>
Apparently not in Health
Sciences, only in Odegaard.
And those are paper reserves though, too?
And video. We tape our lectures and
used to put our videos down in Health Sciences, but those didn’t last either,
so now we put everything at Odegaard.
How do they get out…
I have no idea.
They have an alarm system…
They get up and walk away.
I assume… I was thinking about it the other day,
actually, that the alarm system must be within a certain space range. So if you
walk out with something above your head…
Or in your shoe… <laughter>
Actually, I have no idea. All I know is that
Odegaard figured out how to stop it. Health Sciences hasn’t. Maybe they have
now…
<? 094> airport <? 049> design have you take your
shoes off <? 095>
Is Odegaard problematic as a site?
Well, not really. It is for us. And we have to get the
videotapes up there everyday, and so that’s really a problem. We essentially
have a person who has a job – walks to Odegaard. It’s crazy. But it’s not a
problem for the students, I don’t think. Most of them consider that the normal
place to go.
I don’t use Odegaard for teaching or research, but
I use it for recreation. It’s a terrific resource. They’ve got the video
collection there. They’ve got new books. They’ve got… Everything is really
well-done there. I’m very appreciative of how it’s organized.
<? 101> went on a tour. I was very impressed.
They actually do <? 102> where they don’t have things
behind a desk. Students actually walk up and take reserve items
themselves <? 104> have access to them. So that really shocked me.
It works!
Yeah, it’s very shocking.
Interesting. Good to know. Do you think
electronic information has changed the way we activities – in your research, in
your teaching?
Absolutely.
Oh sure.
No question.
No question.
For the better?
Yeah.
Much better.
Absolutely.
Do you have a sense that you’re missing any things.
I’m missing a lot less.
<? 111> a lot less.
It’s a big, big improvement over the old ways <?
112>
Yeah. The fact that I can do it right from my desk
makes it so much better. Just close the door and I can do it right there.
And it also moves like wildfire through my lab. If
one person in the lab finds a really interesting paper, we all have it within 15
minutes.
Right.
Because the PDF file is just sent all around the email, and we all print it and are all reading it. It’s
great.
It’s a huge luxury to be able to work at home.
That’s where we get our good work done. With our teaching loads, that’s where we
get our good work done. And instead of having to spend the day getting my act
together, getting the reprints copied to get them home so I can do something in
the evening… Go home and just work. It’s wonderful. It’s a tremendous change.
The place where I’ve been negatively impacted, that
was mentioned before, is serendipitous discovery.
Yeah.
Yes.
Where I’m looking at
journals that really are outside my field, and yet I discover work that has
been done…
And it’s hard to identify those electronically, because very often the
terminology is different.
Right.
It’s just by accident. And that has happened so
many times over the years.
Do you feel like it’s…
It’s obviously decreasing now.
But there is <? 127> more of an issue
with books, but if you… for example, you go into the Mathematics Library
because you want to learn some topic. You go to pick up one particular book you
found in research, and lo and behold the books on either side of it are about
the same thing! <laughter>
<? 128> even better.
And that’s not how it works with… electronic
information doesn’t order things…
Yet.
Someday maybe it will be.
Yeah. Browsing. When I’m
teaching a course, I always go and browse the section in the library to see if there’s textbooks I missed or things I should put on reserve.
And as you say, adjacent shelves tell you what’s going on. And often you
discover things you’ve never heard of before.
Trying to find things on the net would be kind of
as if everything on the shelves were ordered just by author – everything –
every book in the library was by author.
I also find that when I’m looking on <? 135>
Google searching, and scanning down it, when I’m in computer mode, I’m scanning
so much more quickly. I think that maybe one of the serendipitous discoveries
easier, in part, is we’re in a very different sort of space. You know that you
can click on something and get to it right away, and so that’s… You’re going
right there, right now.
You hit on a very important thing, because I find
that… The library used to be a sort of leisurely place.
Um hm.
Yeah.
And now what we’re doing is we’re demanding so much
more of ourselves, in terms of… again, I get tremendously impatient when I’m
searching resources on the web. And when I’m… I sometimes go over to the
library and I just sort of stroll down the shelves, pull out books, and it’s a
completely different mode of operation. We now expect ourselves to do so much
more than we did 10 or 15 years ago because you can.
What a difference in the blood pressure. <laughter>
Do you think, by and large, it’s helped your
productivity?
I have a cynical theory of productivity, which is
people do about the same no matter what. It’s just you spend more time doing
other things. When I was a graduate student, we had people to type for us. You
scribbled things on a yellow pad. The first thing I had to do was learn how to
type. Then I had to learn how to do word processing. Remember, long ago there
were people who did word processing when they first came out. And now what I
find is I’m doing all of these, what amounts to clerical tasks, instead of what
I think I’m supposed to be doing. Like the biggest drain on my time now is I
had this idea that I was going to put all my lectures into PowerPoint so that I
could correct them. Because I have all these hand-scribbled
slides. And that’s just enormously time-consuming. I can think “Oh well,
once I’ve got them down I’ll never touch them again.” <laughter>
Yeah right. But I’m spending all my time doing secretarial work, to use an
old-fashioned phrase. And I think that, to some extent, when we do electronic
searches, we’re spending more time doing things other than thinking. I don’t
know. It’s… Because it’s possible to do that. Because
you feel you’re remiss if you haven’t used this opportunity. Where I would be
satisfied with going to the library and pulling a book of the shelf, now I have
to search the web and find every possible reference because I know it’s there.
Of course somebody else will know…
Or somebody else will know.
<? 162> a few red herrings as well…
Exactly. A lot of red herrings.
But, following up on your conversation… I have put all my lectures into
PowerPoint. But I’ve done it over the last 10 years. Maybe
15. And each year, due to the fact that I’m gathering new information,
I’m changing those lectures. They do not remain static.
No, I understand.
And the other side of the coin is that, as you are
putting them into PowerPoint, you begin to realize that there are some
vacancies in there that you need to fill in – got to go back and look for the
information to put it into PowerPoint, and it forces me to look even deeper
than if had kept them on slides. Because slides are static.
You keep them in a tray, and you can bring them out next year and give the same
lecture. Not with PowerPoint.
Yeah, I know. That’s right.
Of course, it’s up to you as to whether you’re
going to change your PowerPoint or not. <laughter>
No, but what I found was that I was sort of
enshrining mistakes in my slides and saying “Oh, I’ve got to correct that” and
then forget to correct it, whereas… as you say…
<? 171> correct it in the classroom <?
171>
But the idea of PowerPoint is then you can plug in…
You go “OK, I want an illustration of this,” go to the web, grab a picture, and
put it in there.
But do your students like the PowerPoint? I teach
out of PowerPoint. I spent the ages of time to get all my lectures into
PowerPoint, and I’m not about to get them out again… But there is a group of
students who hate it. And I’ve never had – in all my student evaluations, I’ve
never had a set of student evaluations that just hated what was doing, when I
used to do the old write-on-the-overhead kind of business. And now there’s
always this group of students: “I hate PowerPoint!” “PowerPoint is the devil’s
work,” one student said. <laughter>
Feels strongly! <laughter>
Why?
What was the reason?
Yeah.
They want to take all their own notes. They do not
want somebody showing you a slide.
Well, they can take their own notes if you give them handouts…
Do you put it up on the web afterwards?
Oh yeah. Before. I put it on the web
before. I sell it. Everything.
Sell it?
Yeah, I sell – I have them make copies at the Copy…
It’s also on the web.
Well, I post it. I tell the students… And I warn
them. I say “These are just the bullets.” I’m delivering content here. And it shows. There
are some students who don’t show up to class because I post my lectures. And it
shows up on the exams. But I’ve never had them complain about the PowerPoint.
Again, I like vanilla PowerPoint. I don’t want any fancy fades or whistles or
howls. It’s just notes. But the electronic interface is very important. Because
then the library resources can be put into the lectures.
Sure.
Movies. I have a lot of movies.
<? 191> one more thing before we quit. You
reminded me of it. One thing the librarians do very well, at Health Sciences,
is they prompt me: “When do you want us to come to your class?” “We’ve looked
at your web page. And we think, one, you should fix this typo, <laughter>
and, two, we have this course you’d really like.” And they’re very <?
195>, and partly because I teach research, they give me <? 196> thing
I can use. But they’re very active <? 197> how to
access information in a variety of different ways. And I’m very, very
appreciative.
<? 199> the person we have for Nursing. They set
up a class whenever <? 200> on how you search the web, and <? 201>. And they do. Extremely fast, what they can pack in one hour <? 203> a little
overwhelming, but it’s a great resource for the students. And we do it early on
in their career because they need this information <? 204>
So you’re teaching nursing students?
Yeah. It wouldn’t matter who you’re teaching. But I
think it’s a curriculum <? 205> with the other faculty.
Where are we going to put this content? Who’s going to get it? Who’s going to lose
other content?
We have a library introduction as part of our
graduate student orientation, but it goes – you know – they’re dazed. I always
put it in a seminar. I just have… Send the kids up to Pam, and she shows them
how to use the library. But let’s chorus for the tape recorder: I think these
outreach efforts by librarians are really valuable.
Well, one think to definitely keep in mind is all
these electronic changes are making searching more powerful, but it’s also
getting harder. That is, things are so much more sophisticated that it is getting harder and harder to be at
the cutting edge. And so that spells an increasing role for librarians as…
guiding faculty, rather than a decreasing role – “Oh it’s all on the web now…”
There’s a comment I wanted to make about the
searching, and it is when I look at the INSPEC categories and I sort of browse
what the options are, what I see is an almost legalistic definition of
terminology. And there’s a big contrast between that kind of thing where
everything is sharply defined, and, OK, that’s very important, and the sort of
intuitive searching that Google does. And I think what… as a lot of people here
have articulated, that since we can’t remember things from day to day, the
rules-based searching is very, very hard. And what we really need is some kind
of intuitive – what can I say – holistic searching just like Google, where you
put down the words that are important to you and it somehow figures out what
you’re trying to ask for. It’s a lot to ask for, but I think the products are
out there, obviously.
Well, we’ve got at least one that seems to work
pretty well.
Yeah, right. And if that could be
applied… If I could have Google search INSPEC, I think I’d be a lot happier person.
I wanted to get back, real quickly just to the… Do
you think your expectations of your students, and what they need to know, has
changed? With technology.
I expect them to know how to manage a Linux system.
<laughter>
That’s definitely different!
<? 231> I mean, if I need to know how to search
the web to write papers, grants and things, they need to know how to do it just
<? 233>. In nursing, at least, you don’t write
protocols any more, they don’t hold lit reviews in a hospital. You don’t <? 235> unless you’ve got 10 papers, so this is what you do <?
236>. That used to be what everyone handed in.
These people all need to know how to <? 237> electronic
media <? 237>.
I’m sort of surprised at the low level of computer
literacy among our graduate students. I don’t know so much about the undergrads,
because we don’t have that high of expectations in their ability to use
computers. But my graduate students, I have high expectations, and most of them can’t
meet them.
I agree.
And it’s shocking to me.
I think what it says, though, is that kids have grown
up used to using them, but using them in a totally different way. It’s apples
and oranges, really.
It seems to me it’s getting better, because the
kids who grew up with Atari really were behind. The kids, now, who have grown
up with reasonable Macintoshes or PCs at home are a little bit better. But they
still – if there’s something
strange that happens with the computer, the computer could not work for a week,
and no one will ever do anything about it!
Sure. That’s right.
My son in middle school has <? 247> all the time. So by the time we get that generation…
Yeah. Maybe that’s the only way it’s going to be
<? 248>
But my son’s a freshman at Reed, and I basically
have to show him how to use his computer. He’s been sitting at our computer
browsing the web since he was 11, but it’s all – the tasks that he knows how to
do have nothing to do with what he needs as a student to access information.
I think it depends. I think in your household it
happened differently.
My son knew all about Napster, but he had no idea
how to… <laughter>
Exactly. Could burn an MP3 every
day of the week… <laughter>
<? 256> whereas when I had to
go and search down <? 257>
<? 258> helping with that recently.
It has really helped.
Well, in dentistry - medicine too – evidence-based practice
is really where it’s at. And it’s so much easier to help students figure out
what that is, and <? 262> teaching them right now. So those kinds of
pieces of the puzzle change dramatically. What we teach and how we teach it.
One thing about teaching, in terms of teaching
technology, is it strikes me that it doesn’t make a lot of sense to teach a
specific technology…
I agree.
Oh yes, absolutely.
…because in two years when the
undergrads or graduate students are off on their own, the technology is going to
be different. So somehow, you have
to teach the ideas, the conceptual notions. And I’m not sure how you do that.
But if we really wanted to be effective at teaching technology to our students,
I think that’s the only way.
Well, I think it’s kind of like programming languages.
You learn what’s current at any instant of time and then you have to keep up
with it as things change. I still baffle my students by writing Fortran programs <laughter> and I can’t read what they
write, but… When they’re in graduate school, they’ll learn C, and they’ll teach
their students whatever is available then.
Just to put it in time: Fortran II or Fortran IV?
I started in Fortran II, but I <laughter> I’m up
to 77 now.
He punched cards.
I punched tape before he punched cards.
I punched
cards, but I wrote in Algol. <laughter>
We’re very close here. I’ll end up with one real
general question. Where do you think we need to go next? What are you going to
need most in the near future?
More e-journals.
Better way to search PubMed. Really.
I think that’s it; I think the thing they’re looking
for… I agree with what they’re saying… is a search engine that will be more
sympathetic to our needs with a <? 282> input from us.
And actually, continued ready access to people
support.
Oh yes.
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
<? 285> can’t understand the question. <laughter>
Yeah. I’d rather have to send away for a journal
article than to not have a person available to talk to.
Yeah.
<? 288>
I have a non-related question.
<? 293>
Well, I’ll tell you what. You’ll probably get email in
the next week or so that will have… most of you, perhaps, know
Terry’s email, and my own email. If you think of anything you want to add, feel
free to do that. I’m kliston@u… Terry is terryj. Feel free to email. We’ll try
to get something out on some of the issues that you’ve raised that were
strictly informational that will give you a little bit more actually
information. And I think we’ve covered all the ground that we were to cover.
Wow.